http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/joh_frame/PT.joh_frame.dcl.4.3_38.html
http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/joh_frame/PT.joh_frame.dcl.4.3_39.html
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5 Solas |
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I believe Frame answers your questions here:
http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/joh_frame/PT.joh_frame.dcl.4.3_38.html http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/joh_frame/PT.joh_frame.dcl.4.3_39.html
In Christ,
5 Solas |
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Matthaeus Flexibilis |
Ethical specifics | #2 | ||
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Thanks for the links. They provide helpful background and partial answers, but they don't address all the questions raised.
With regard to #1, I believe Frame would be in agreement with my missionary friend on admitting him to membership and not placing any restrictions on his relations with his wives. With regard to #2, Frame discusses divorce for legitimate grounds (most surprising to me was that he allows both parties, rather than just the "innocent," to remarry others after one party commits adultery), but he doesn't spend as much time on illegitimate divorce, which was the premise of my question. I infer that illegitimate divorce could also be considered desertion, which would thus provide legitimate grounds for divorce and remarriage. So then, the end is the same, no matter how they got there, and in effect, there's no such thing as an illegitimate divorce. This seems to me to be a rather unsatisfying way of looking at it. Moreover, what are the man's responsibilities toward his ex-wife and their children? She needs, not just money, but man-power (as it were) to help with the kids and the house and such. She'd like to be reconciled or to remarry, but her circumstances make it very difficult and rather unlikely that she will succeed with either. What is the nature of his responsibilities here? Would it be better or worse for him to turn his "serial polygamy" into simultaneous polygamy, with both of his wives and children in the same house? And if it is better, then should he refrain from being intimate with the one of his wives (but cf. #1)? With regard to #3, Frame doesn't discuss this type of scenario. He says that the biblical view is that marriage is between one man and one woman, and I agree. The problem is that these two people have (imprudently) sworn an oath before God and covenanted together. Which is better, for them to keep their bad covenant or for them to break it? Does the fact that they have adopted children have any influence on the deliberations? Even if one suggests they stay together but be celibate, this will break their vow, which, like normal marriage vows, implied regular intimacy. Again, I'd like to know the implication of the verses I mentioned for these scenarios. |
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Goldberry of Withywindle |
On #3. | #3 | ||
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I don't know if this will help, but I'll just throw out this thought.
It seems significant to this particular situation (actually to all of them, in different ways) to ask the question whether marriage is a vow, or a set of vows that ordinarily (and I use that word deliberately) travel together. If it's a set of vows, a lot of the difficulties clear up. One can maintain those aspects of the vow that do not require inherently sinful actions, or at least have some latitude in determining how and whether they are to be maintained, while abrogating those that are simply morally unacceptable (e.g. an ongoing requirement for same sex physical intimacy.) I'll add the caveat that even if we determine that the vows are separable, I'm not 100% sure that the moral reasoning of the last paragraph works. But I offer it for consideration, and I'll mention that I'm pretty sure that we do ordinarily speak of wedding "vows" as a plural. One other consideration relevant to #3: physical intimacy seems to have latitude in application that other vows don't. Nobody gets off the hook, ever, for loving, honoring, cherishing, bearing with in sickness and health, etc. But it's generally understood that people with serious limitations of age or physical difficulties aren't sinning if sexual intimacy goes by the wayside. Since godly sexuality is actually impossible in a same sex relationship, I think 1) the same latitude applies here and 2) the obligation of obedient sexuality couldn't be kept in any case. Perhaps a stickier question is whether either partner would be free to remarry in the Lord given that no real marriage existed before. Vows did exist, but how can they count as "marriage" for purposes of deciding "marriage" issues? I would think that such marriage would be possible in the same way that a true innocent party with children would be free to remarry at the end of a genuinely contracted marriage.
~Jane~
Suddenly I was abuzz with ideas. What about issuing stickers printed with the words, "This apostrophe is not necessary"? What about telling people to shin up ladders at dead of night with an apostrophe-shaped stencil and a tin of paint? Why did the Apostrophe Protection Society not have a militant wing? Could I start one? Where do you get balaclavas? -- Eats, Shoots and Leaves
Last Edited By: Goldberry of Withywindle 05/30/08 11:39:19.
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Matthaeus Flexibilis |
Futher thoughts | #4 | ||
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Thanks for your reply, Jane.
I'm not sure about the separability of vows either (it reminds me of the line-item veto), but it seems to me that "wedding vows" (plural) could refer to the fact that two parties each took a single vow to the other before God. I have also heard it in the singular, as in, "Young man, you need to keep your wedding vow to your wife" or "Didn't you take a vow to 'love, honor, and obey' your husband?" In any case, even if we could find clarity on separability, I don't think it would resolve the problem. A vow made before the Lord is still a vow, even if one made several others at the same time. The question with respect to those passages I mentioned is what to do with a bad (or rash) vow or covenant, like Jephthah's or Joshua's with the Gibeonites. It seems that for these two instances at least, they were obligated to keep them even though they were foolishly made. Likewise with a young woman -- her rash vow can be voided by her father, but she herself cannot void it. In a Q&A on this topic, Ra said: [P]erhaps there are situations in which the greater sin is to keep the vow. Each case must be evaluated on its own merits. The point I would make is that we have no biblical examples of cases in which breaking the vow was the lesser of two evils. In the cases of Jephthah, Joshua, and Jacob's marriage to Leah, the vows/covenants prevailed. The same is true in the Law regarding rash vows in Numbers 30. There we are told that it is a sin to make a rash vow (Num. 30:8; only sin requires forgiveness) as well as to break a rash vow (Num. 30:15). We are also told that a rash vow will "stand against" the one who makes it (Num. 30:9). This language is reminiscent of an enemy in battle, or perhaps of a witness in court, implying that the vow will be the adversary of the one who makes it. That is, the vow will be binding, and the result will not be good.On latitude regarding physical intimacy, we can stretch the example a bit to test the principle further. Let's say the gay or lesbian couple's vow explicitly included a commitment to regular physical relations with exceptions for infirmity and the like. On what basis can we say that it is better to break the sinful vow than to continue in regular physical relations? Jephthah and Joshua seem to militate against this conclusion. |
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rodkirby |
Westminster Confession | #5 | ||
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The WCF chapter 22 says, "No man may vow to do any thing forbidden in the Word of God, or what would hinder any duty therein commanded, or which is not in
his own power, and for the performance whereof he has no promise of ability from God." (par. 7).
Here are the Scripture proofs: ACT 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul. MAR 6:26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her. NUM 30:5 But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the Lord shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her. 8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the Lord shall forgive her. 12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the Lord shall forgive her. 13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void. But I'm not convinced that these deal with the situation described. They teach that it is wrong to vow to do something sinful. But I don't know that they tell us what to do once we have made such a vow.
Rod Kirby, Ph.D.
Dominion Christian High School Marietta, GA dominionchristian.org |
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Goldberry of Withywindle |
Isn't the fact that there are not two sexes involved... | #6 | ||
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a genuine physical limitation?
I should have been clearer: in a way, my point is that they can't have anything that is properly described as sexual relations, and therefore could not actually fulfill a vow to do so. I agree with you on the Gibeonites point, and I think that has some tough implications that Reformed thought doesn't entirely satisfy me on (cf. Luther and the nuns) but "not killing people" is not an ongoing, repetitive sin in the way that ongoing homosexual relations are. That is more an example of the duty to keep a vow overriding a specific and unique obligation. On Jepthah, I'm not fully convinced that his example is normative in the way the Gibeonite situation was. Not wiping out the Gibeonites was sinful because God had specifically commanded that at a certain time and place, certain peoples were to be wiped out. But "not killing people" is not wicked in all times and in all places. On the other hand, God commands that all times and all places the innocent not be murdered in pagan rituals, which is what sacrificing your daughter amounts to, regardless of whose name you do it in. Besides, do we really want to say that the righteous course is to hold every person to his vow, who cries in a fit of rage, "I swear on my mother's grave I'll kill you!"
~Jane~
Suddenly I was abuzz with ideas. What about issuing stickers printed with the words, "This apostrophe is not necessary"? What about telling people to shin up ladders at dead of night with an apostrophe-shaped stencil and a tin of paint? Why did the Apostrophe Protection Society not have a militant wing? Could I start one? Where do you get balaclavas? -- Eats, Shoots and Leaves |
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Matthaeus Flexibilis |
Intuition | #7 | ||
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Jane said,
Isn't the fact that there are not two sexes involved a genuine physical limitation?I hear what you're saying, but in the context of the original vows, the intent should be reasonably clear to both parties. They weren't vowing to do something that was physically impossible for them; they were vowing to do what they knew they could. We don't have to call it "sexual relations," though such a definition would be out of keeping with common usage. Intuitively, I suspect we're all (including Ra) of one mind on Jephthah. The problem is, how can we support that intuitive view scripturally? Is this an area where we need the Bible to correct our intuition? |
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Goldberry of Withywindle |
True, but.... | #8 | ||
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what if someone decided that their marriage vows should follow the Bonnie and Clyde model? "To love, honor, cherish, and rob banks with you, as long as we
both shall live."
Should that vow be adhered to, if we decide that the marriage is otherwise binding? And how is that any different (in the ways that are relevant here) from an ongoing practice of sexual perversion? It only seems too absurd to consider because no one's done it (that we know of.) But is two women forming a marriage covenant any less absurd than a man and a woman forming a marriage-bank robbery covenant?
~Jane~
Suddenly I was abuzz with ideas. What about issuing stickers printed with the words, "This apostrophe is not necessary"? What about telling people to shin up ladders at dead of night with an apostrophe-shaped stencil and a tin of paint? Why did the Apostrophe Protection Society not have a militant wing? Could I start one? Where do you get balaclavas? -- Eats, Shoots and Leaves
Last Edited By: Goldberry of Withywindle 06/03/08 11:57:10.
Edited 1 time.
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Matthaeus Flexibilis |
Absurdity | #9 | ||
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Jane,
I am in complete agreement with you when it comes to my intuition of how to approach such cases. The question is, Why does this intuition not seem to be validated by Scripture? Could it mean that our intuition needs reforming? |
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Goldberry of Withywindle |
Where is your base assumption coming from? | #10 | ||
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Unless I'm mistaken, your base assumption is that scripture teaches that vows, no matter what their content, are never, ever to be broken.
I don't think the case for that is anywhere near clear enough to create a problem with "shall we engage in abominable conduct or break this vow?" What I can think of to support the position are a few exemplary cases of vows not being broken in varying circumstances and never (as far as I can tell) an explicit word from God requiring such to be the case, one commendation of someone who keeps vows to his own hurt (which is not the same as keeping them to the dishonor of God's law) versus explicit commands not to engage in perversion, murder, what have you. So I'm not sure how you get a clear enough teaching on not breaking vows to allow it to override situations of obvious law-breaking. Even among your examples, the closest thing you get is Jephthah, but Jephthah did a lot of stuff that doesn't really work for normative example.
~Jane~
Suddenly I was abuzz with ideas. What about issuing stickers printed with the words, "This apostrophe is not necessary"? What about telling people to shin up ladders at dead of night with an apostrophe-shaped stencil and a tin of paint? Why did the Apostrophe Protection Society not have a militant wing? Could I start one? Where do you get balaclavas? -- Eats, Shoots and Leaves |
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| Breaking bad vows | 05/28/08 11:38:12 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| Re: Breaking bad vows | 05/29/08 07:13:17 | 5 Solas |
| Ethical specifics | 05/29/08 09:56:03 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| On #3. | 05/30/08 11:32:54 | Goldberry of Withywindle |
| Futher thoughts | 05/30/08 14:52:35 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| Westminster Confession | 05/30/08 16:45:10 | rodkirby |
| Isn't the fact that there are not two sexes involved... | 06/02/08 12:02:11 | Goldberry of Withywindle |
| Intuition | 06/02/08 13:13:32 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| True, but.... | 06/03/08 11:29:13 | Goldberry of Withywindle |
| Absurdity | 06/06/08 09:59:01 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| Where is your base assumption coming from? | 06/07/08 19:38:17 | Goldberry of Withywindle |
| bad vows | 06/03/08 23:15:03 | bhooe |
| not | 06/03/08 23:20:25 | bhooe |
| The point | 06/06/08 15:49:06 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| So a vow | 06/04/08 05:58:35 | 5 Solas |
| Re: Breaking bad vows | 06/06/08 10:04:06 | Matthaeus Flexibilis |
| Re: Breaking bad vows | 06/06/08 11:53:50 | 5 Solas |
| keeping vows | 07/02/08 02:25:21 | bhooe |
| Keeping vows | 07/02/08 02:42:10 | bhooe |
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