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MarkNZ wrote:

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Scripture has to be interpreted, sometimes the answers are in other parts of the bible, sometimes not, ( re. the church starting at pentecost ) thats the only thing that makes sense to me and I believe thats quite a popular interpretation.
I agree with you on some of those things your saying. I also agree Abraham and other old testament saints are in heaven now but before Christ paid the price they were in paradise.
National and spiritual Israel-Sorry if i interpreted what you were meaning there.
We do have some different interpretations and opinions but I'd rather leave it there, thanks for your time and input.

Mark.

In all due respect, even if we accept that the OT saints were in Paradise before the Day of Pentecost [they were in heaven, (paradise) 2 Cor. 5:8; 12:2-4, e.g. Matt. 8:11, etc.] and then resurrected on the Day of Pentecost (need scripture please), this does not resolve your dilemma. The mere fact that the OT "saints" existed prior to Pentecost reveals the church existed prior to Pentecost- just in a different state, under different covenants (see Acts 7:38, etc.). Even Paul speaks of OT saints that were baptized into Moses - they all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:1-4). Even the church today is in a different state then it will be at its glorification and final resurrection and yet it is still the church for which Christ died (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28).

You may enjoy this:

http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/ric_pratt/PT.Pratt.Jew.First.html

and:

http://thirdmill.org/sermons/compile_speaker.asp/speaker/Kim%20Riddlebarger/site/iiim/category/speakers