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earl40	Interesting		Lead	[-]
Posts: 20 07/21/08 12:17:28	Tags : None Below is something I found on Catholic Encyclopedia. As per my topics I have recently posted on, should sleep SDA theology has Jesus either asleep while in the grave, or that it was His divinity that survived the cross while His Humanity slept. IOW either of them does violence to the incarnation in my mind. My question........Would either of these doctrines be considered an "official heresy"? "Fourth General Council of the Church defined that Jesus Christ remained, after the Incarnation, "perfect in Divinity and perfect in humanity . . . consubstantial with the Father according to His Divinity, consubstantial with us according to His humanity . . . one and the same Christ, the Son, the Lord, the Only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures not intermingled, not changed, not divisible, not separable" I assume after the Incarnation includes after the cross and before the resurrection. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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5 Solas		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 270 07/21/08 21:00:01 Administrator	earl40 wrote: Below is something I found on Catholic Encyclopedia. As per my topics I have recently posted on, should sleep SDA theology has Jesus either asleep while in the grave, or that it was His divinity that survived the cross while His Humanity slept. IOW either of them does violence to the incarnation in my mind. My question........Would either of these doctrines be considered an "official heresy"? First, Jesus died on the Cross and was dead in the grave. He was raised from the dead. He was not merely asleep. Second, your statement "His divinity that survived the cross while His Humanity slept" denies a proper view of death. In essence, you are denying that Christ was resurrected from the dead - but that He was resurrected from sleep. Since your points deny a true resurrection from the dead it is heretical (Rom. 10:9-10, et. al.). The term sleep in scripture at times means death. As normal sleep is peaceful, death, as symbolized by sleep, is peaceful for the Christian. The Christian need not fear death (Rom. 8: 35-39)..... In Christ, 5 Solas
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earl40		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 22 07/22/08 06:28:59	You wrote...."First, Jesus died on the Cross and was dead in the grave. He was raised from the dead. He was not merely asleep. Second, your statement "His divinity that survived the cross while His Humanity slept" denies a proper view of death. In essence, you are denying that Christ was resurrected from the dead - but that He was resurrected from sleep. Since your points deny a true resurrection from the dead it is heretical (Rom. 10:9-10, et. al.)." I ask......Do you think He was in the grave or heaven after His death? I know we both believe His body was in the grave, but the first line you wrote "First, Jesus died on the Cross and was dead in the grave" appears that "He" was there. Just trying to clarify what you wrote. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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5 Solas		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 273 07/22/08 10:38:22 Administrator	earl40 wrote: You wrote...."First, Jesus died on the Cross and was dead in the grave. He was raised from the dead. He was not merely asleep. Second, your statement "His divinity that survived the cross while His Humanity slept" denies a proper view of death. In essence, you are denying that Christ was resurrected from the dead - but that He was resurrected from sleep. Since your points deny a true resurrection from the dead it is heretical (Rom. 10:9-10, et. al.)." I ask......Do you think He was in the grave or heaven after His death? I know we both believe His body was in the grave, but the first line you wrote "First, Jesus died on the Cross and was dead in the grave" appears that "He" was there. Just trying to clarify what you wrote. We can speak of God dying only if we mean that Jesus, the person who is God, died. The problem is that we cannot say that Jesus died in his divine nature. He only died in his human nature. (This is not the same thing as saying that his human nature died; natures don't die, persons do.) It would be just as impossible for Jesus to have died in his divine nature as it would be for the Father or the Holy Spirit to die. It was only necessary that Jesus die in his human nature. His divine nature was not in the grave for 3 days - but His body was..... This is normally what we mean when we say Christ died for our sins and rose again (1 Cor. 15:3-4) ... that Jesus died (1 Thess. 4:14), He died, (Rom. 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:15; ), et. al.. In Christ, 5 Solas
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earl40	I am happy we are discussing this	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 07/22/08 12:27:14	The word death can mean something other than physical. For instance "the dead" will get a "new body" at the resurrection also, and experience the second death while still alive. You see Jesus experienced "death" while still alive on the cross by His separation from the Father while on the cross. Remember what Jesus said BEFORE He died PHYSICALLY. "It is Finished". This was BEFORE He died. Google up what John MacArthur has to say on this. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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earl40	The article was hard to find but here it is.	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 24 07/22/08 13:14:26	The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr. It was transcribed by Anjela Paje of Spokane, WA, from the tape, GC 1301-T, titled "Bible Questions and Answers Part 22." A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE. ©1982. All Rights Reserved. Question Did God die on the cross, or just the humanness of Christ die, and if no, then what was the purpose of the incarnation? Answer Did God die on the cross? For a moment, we have to say yes. Because Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was God. And, death, basically, means what? Separation from God. Was Jesus separated from God? My God, My God, why hast thou what? Forsaken me? He was separated from God. He died. And, the Bible says He died, over and over, and over, and over, and over, doesnt it? He died. He died. He died, and He was Jesus Christ. You cannot separate Jesus Christs humanness from His deity. You cannot cut Him up. He was Jesus Christ, the God-man and He died. So, yes, God died on the cross. Now, how you separate one member of the trinity from the rest, I don't know, but I do not really worry about it because if God expected me to know it, He would have told me, or given me the ability to think it through, and I haven't. All I know is, He did die on the cross. He was separated from the Father, and, yet, one with the Father, and I don't understand that, and I am not going to be worried about not understanding it. It is not Gods problem. It is mine. I just do not have what it takes. Question continues But, it is important to know that God did die on the cross, right? Answer Well, of course. Otherwise, all youve got is a human sacrifice, a human martyr up there. The weight of sin of all the sins, of all the world killed Jesus Christ. Question continues So, the death of just the humanness of Christ would not have atoned for all the sins of the world? Answer There is nothing about Jesus that you can separate out and talk only of His humanness. He is a whole person. Question continues I just want to get that clarified because a lot of people said that He did die just in His humanness and I said, No. Answer No. But, you see, His spirit isn't dead because when His body is dead on the cross, as we saw earlier, His spirit descends and proclaims a victory over the demons, and so, yes, He died, but remember now, this is not our definition necessarily, or our perception. But, surely, He died. It says He died, and He was separated from the Father. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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5 Solas		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 274 07/22/08 14:34:57 Administrator	earl40 wrote: The word death can mean something other than physical. For instance "the dead" will get a "new body" at the resurrection also, and experience the second death while still alive. You see Jesus experienced "death" while still alive on the cross by His separation from the Father while on the cross. Remember what Jesus said BEFORE He died PHYSICALLY. "It is Finished". This was BEFORE He died. Google up what John MacArthur has to say on this. There are several forms of death in Scripture. Man is dead in trespasses and sins unless/until he is saved (Eph.2:1), and yet still walks around, (there is spiritual death, physical death, the second death, being dead to sin, dead to the law etc.). However, Jesus' death was more than JUST separation from God, it was also a actual literal physical death. To deny a literal physical death of Christ is "unbelief." Jesus did not fall asleep on the Cross. His body did not sleep in the grave. Jesus' body was resurrected from death (not mere sleep) in an actual grave (not a Sterns and Foster). As He had an actual bodily resurrection from death (not mere sleep), so will his saints (1 Cor. 15). To deny the actual need of a literal physical death (Heb. 9:22) is heresy. Jesus said: (1) "It is finished" (John 19:30); (2) "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46); and then He (3) "bowed his head, and gave up the ghost" (John 19:30). This series of statements reveals Christ's last moments before literal physical death. The phrase, "It is finished" has a "now, but not reality" to it. The phrase looked forward to His actual physical death and also His resurrection, (1 Cor. 15:3-4), et. al. for these things had been predetermined in eternity (Acts 2:23, etc.). As Paul writes, "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Col. 1:23). As Big Mac states, The literal blood of Christ was violently shed at the crucifixion. Those who deny this truth or try to spiritualize the death of Christ are guilty of corrupting the gospel message. Jesus Christ bled and died in the fullest literal sense, and when He rose from the dead, he was literally resurrected. To deny the absolute reality of those truths is to nullify them (cf. 1 Cor. 15:14-17). … Had our Lord bled without dying, redemption would not have been accomplished. If the atonement had been stopped before the full wages of sin had been satisfied, Jesus' bloodshed would have been to no avail. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/blood.htm In Christ, 5 Solas
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5 Solas		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 276 07/22/08 16:11:32 Administrator	earl40 wrote: The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr. It was transcribed by Anjela Paje of Spokane, WA, from the tape, GC 1301-T, titled "Bible Questions and Answers Part 22." A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE. ©1982. All Rights Reserved. Question Did God die on the cross, or just the humanness of Christ die, and if no, then what was the purpose of the incarnation? Answer Did God die on the cross? For a moment, we have to say yes. Because Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was God. And, death, basically, means what? Separation from God. Was Jesus separated from God? My God, My God, why hast thou what? Forsaken me? He was separated from God. He died. And, the Bible says He died, over and over, and over, and over, and over, doesnt it? He died. He died. He died, and He was Jesus Christ. You cannot separate Jesus Christs humanness from His deity. You cannot cut Him up. He was Jesus Christ, the God-man and He died. So, yes, God died on the cross. Now, how you separate one member of the trinity from the rest, I don't know, but I do not really worry about it because if God expected me to know it, He would have told me, or given me the ability to think it through, and I haven't. All I know is, He did die on the cross. He was separated from the Father, and, yet, one with the Father, and I don't understand that, and I am not going to be worried about not understanding it. It is not Gods problem. It is mine. I just do not have what it takes. Question continues But, it is important to know that God did die on the cross, right? Answer Well, of course. Otherwise, all youve got is a human sacrifice, a human martyr up there. The weight of sin of all the sins, of all the world killed Jesus Christ. Question continues So, the death of just the humanness of Christ would not have atoned for all the sins of the world? Answer There is nothing about Jesus that you can separate out and talk only of His humanness. He is a whole person. Question continues I just want to get that clarified because a lot of people said that He did die just in His humanness and I said, No. Answer No. But, you see, His spirit isn't dead because when His body is dead on the cross, as we saw earlier, His spirit descends and proclaims a victory over the demons, and so, yes, He died, but remember now, this is not our definition necessarily, or our perception. But, surely, He died. It says He died, and He was separated from the Father. As far as Big Mac's quote, I agree with some of it and disagree with the way some of it is phrased. We seem to agree when he states, "Did God die on the cross? For a moment, we have to say yes. Because Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was God" and I said, "We can speak of God dying only if we mean that Jesus, the person who is God, died." He also ends it with saying, "But, you see, His spirit isn't dead because when His body is dead on the cross… However, his explanation that follows sounds as if he may think Jesus descended into Hell - if so, IMO he is incorrect. http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99726.qna/category/th/page/questions/site/iiim To the question, "So, the death of just the humanness of Christ would not have atoned for all the sins of the world?" HE stated, "There is nothing about Jesus that you can separate out and talk only of His humanness. He is a whole person." First, Jesus did not attempt to atone for the sins of the whole world - just the elects (Eph. 1:3-11, etc. - Big Mac actually agrees with me here, but did not correct it). Second, he seems to say (and is at least is implying) that divinity died on the Cross (at best he is unclear on this point). However, we are not divine and therefore his divinity did not have to die for us. As I stated before, "The problem is that we cannot say that Jesus died in his divine nature. He only died in his human nature. (This is not the same thing as saying that his human nature died; natures don't die, persons do.) It would be just as impossible for Jesus to have died in his divine nature as it would be for the Father or the Holy Spirit to die. It was only necessary that Jesus die in his human nature." Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology states it more correctly than Big Mac saying, "Therefore, even though Jesus' divine nature did not actually die, Jesus went through the experience of death as a whole person, and both human and divine natures somehow shared in that experience." BTW, I will be gone for a while (other work and responsibilities) so hopefully someone else will pipe in. In Christ, 5 Solas
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earl40	Thank you	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 25 07/22/08 21:39:23	You wrote....."The problem is that we cannot say that Jesus died in his divine nature. He only died in his human nature. (This is not the same thing as saying that his human nature died; natures don't die, persons do.) It would be just as impossible for Jesus to have died in his divine nature as it would be for the Father or the Holy Spirit to die." My reply....I believe you contradict yourself by saying "natures don't die, people do." Jesus was a person who is both God and Man and we both agree Jesus is that person. IOW all of Jesus died. I have had this discussion before and I understand the "wooden" idea we all can have concerning a word and what it means. The operative word here is death, which BTW I am having a devil of a time speaking with my SDA friend about. He can not get over how a man cam be both dead and alive at the same time. As you know, and believe, we as men can be both physically alive and spiritually dead at the same time. Why couldn't Jesus on the cross? Of course we have to think what happened on the cross. I will go far as to say that Our Lord died before He "physically died". Now I agree the physical death that resulted was part of the atonment but the separation from the Father while physically alive on the cross is the same as being dead also. Think about when Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" or when the unsaved are to experience "The second death". These people are DEAD or separated from The Father, especially the second example, and they have bodies, are alive physically, and are said to BE DEAD. Also God told Adam "the day you eat you die". They did eat and did die, but were alive physically. So death can and does mean physical BUT just as important the spiritual death Also this is why I am speaking with the SDA person about in that I am also speaking about our soul. Like Jesus, we never cease to exist but live either forever in His grace (alive spiritually) or out of it (dead spiritually BUT alive in conscience or being). So to even say Jesus died in His humanity needs to be qualified in that His soul (which is HUMAN)did not cease to exist but suffered death with the meaning of death by what Our Lord said "My God My God why have you forsaken me". That is DEATH. Also you wrote this quote.... Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology states it more correctly than Big Mac saying, "Therefore, even though Jesus' divine nature did not actually die, Jesus went through the experience of death as a whole person, and both human and divine natures somehow shared in that experience." This also IMMHO misunderstand what the word "death" means though Wayne Gruden does know SOMEHOW Jesus did experience DEATH in both His humanity and divinity. Remember His soul did not cease to exist but His body stopped working BUT His soul did die. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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5 Solas		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 277 07/23/08 00:18:47 Administrator	God is eternal (1 Tim. 1:17) and by definition cannot die (1 Tim. 6:14-15). You do not understand God's nature - the Trinity. Though there is three persons in the Godhead, there is only one nature/substance (homoousios). If God died when Jesus died, not 1/3, but 3/3 of God died - so that no God at all could have remained to resurrect Jesus, for Paul states that "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Col. 2:9). Therefore, Christ's divine nature DID NOT die. As Peter reports, "Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin." In his Institutes II:12:3, Calvin states: … our Lord came forth very man, adopted the person of Adam, and assumed his name, that he might in his stead obey the Father; that he might present our flesh as the price of satisfaction to the just judgement of God, and in the same flesh pay the penalty which we had incurred. Finally, since as God only he could not suffer, and as man only could not overcome death, he united the human nature with the divine, that he might subject the weakness of the one [the body] to death as an expiation of sin, and by the power of the other, maintaining a struggle with death, might gain us the victory. Moreover, in Calvin's 1541-45 Catechism of the Church of Geneva, the Catechist asks regarding Christ: But seeing He is God - how could He be seized with any such dread, as if He were forsaken by God?" To which the Catechumen is to reply: "We must hold that it was in respect to the feelings of His human nature [not divine nature] that He was reduced to this necessity; and, so that this might be, His divinity for a little while was concealed - that is, did not put forth its might. The Belgic Confession -19 - (again agreeing with Grudem) states: But these two natures are so united together in one person that they are not even separated by his death…. we confess him to be true God and true man - true God in order to conquer death [not to succumb to it] by his power, and true man that he might die for us in the weakness of his flesh. The WCF (VIII.8.4, 7) also rejects the heresy of divinity dying: This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake; which that He might discharge, He was made under the law, and did perfectly fulfil it; endured most grievous torments immediately in His soul, and most painful sufferings in His body [not in His divinity] ; was crucified, and died, was buried,… Christ, in the work of mediation, acts according to both natures, by each nature doing that which is proper to itself; [Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 3:18] yet, by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in Scripture attributed to the person denominated by the other nature - yet never attributed also to the other nature itself! Sorry, but I have a magazine to publish. Bye. In Christ, 5 Solas
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earl40	I believe you did not read or that you did not understand what I wrote	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 26 07/23/08 07:20:48	Could you define the word DEATH. When ever you come back. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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5 Solas		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 280 07/23/08 14:42:59 Administrator	earl40 wrote: Could you define the word DEATH. When ever you come back. In my last post, I responded to your assertions: (1) "I believe you contradict yourself by saying "natures don't die, people do" by proving from Scripture, the doctrine of the Trinity, and church history that your statements were incorrect. In addition, your statement, "though Wayne Gruden does know SOMEHOW Jesus did experience DEATH in both His humanity and divinity" was also incorrect, as Grudem specifically says, "Therefore, even though Jesus' divine nature did not actually die" in the SAME sentence. This was also disproven in the Confessions, et. al. The post also responded to the biblical understanding of Christ's death from Calvin and the Confessions. However, to clarify further... Eccl. 12:7 gives us the definition of the results of death saying, "and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Note the Holy Spirit separates the two different parts of man to two distinct places. The body, is subject to death and resurrection, however, the spirit is the essence of life and departs [separates] from a person (Jam. 2:26 - "As the body without the spirit is dead" and "into thy hands I commend my spirit" - Luke 23:46). However, this does NOT mean the spirit is dead, as to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord - 2 Cor. 5:8; cf. Phil. 1:23; cf. Luke 23:43 - TODAY [not in 3 days] thou shall be WITH ME in Paradise), but that it is "separated" from the body for a time. As the WCF (32) states: I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption [Gen. 3:19; Acts 13:36]: but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them [Luke 23:43; Eccl. 12:7]: the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies [Heb. 12:23; 2 Cor. 5:1, 6, 8; Phil. 1:23; Acts 3:21; Eph. 4:10]. And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none. II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed [1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:51-52]: and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever [Job 19:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:42-44]. Therefore, at physical death, there is a separation, but this does not mean that everything that is separated is "physically" dead. Maybe a better term here would be to say there is an "absence" - "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:22-23). By using the term "absence" though we must still affirm Christ's omnipresence. Thus, there is tension here - He is in the grave, yet separated, while His body is awaiting resurrection. Moreover, all three members of the Trinity are credited with resurrecting Jesus from the dead (Father - Acts 5:30; 1 Peter 1:3; Holy Spirit - Romans 1:4; 8:11; and yes even Christ himself - John 10:17-18; 11:25). The dead do not resurrect the dead - the living [not dead] Godhead does. You stated, "Now I agree the physical death that resulted was part of the atonment but the separation from the Father while physically alive on the cross is the same as being dead also." But, again "separation" is not "literally" the same as physical death. It is actually much worse - to know and yet not be able to fully partake ("now, but not yet" tension). Moreover, when Jesus said the words, "My God, My God…" He is not seeing the actual death of His Spirit (which is Who? - please answer this, as if answered correctly, it will help clarify the issue). In other words, God could not forsake himself [Jesus' divinity] as they both share the same essence/nature. Though finite examples of the infinite may be problematic, think of it this way: You, I, and another are all in a room with a controlled oxygen supply. If this oxygen supply is turned off, all of us will die because we presently exist because of this oxygen. In a similar fashion, if the dead switch to God's [eternal] nature was turned off, all three persons of the Trinity would cease to exist as their essence - one oxygen supply - has been turned off . …. This is impossible. BTW, we normally publish RPM magazine every Wed. or Thurs. You may desire to sign up: http://thirdmill.org/magazine/subscribe.asp/site/iiim/category/subscribe Enjoy. See you later. In Christ, 5 Solas Last Edited By: 5 Solas 07/23/08 18:08:18. Edited 1 time.
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earl40	Now do not get me wrong	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 28 07/23/08 22:20:48	I am not the SDA fella. I think you do not understand I am saying the word death or dead can mean something BESIDES physical. Maybe you can answer what Jesus meant with "let the DEAD bury their DEAD". Or how DEAD people stand "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne". Or did Adam and Eve die the day they ate? You wrote ......"But, again "separation" is not "literally" the same as physical death." I agree but it is spiritual DEATH. Now before you go off listen to me here PLEASE. I am NOT saying The Lord Jesus's soul ceased to operate like our bodies do when they die but I am saying the death I am speaking about is the death like those that are damned experience when they go to hell. Scripture alludes to this in that "5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)" and are later called DEAD while they are ALIVE because they were part of the second resurrection.The souls of the damned are DEAD while their bodies are ALIVE or DEAD. So in essence Jesus took the penalty that we deserve upon Himself on the cross which is separation from The Father. Think about it for one second.....don't we say hell is separation of the love and grace of God? If Jesus bore our sin upon Himself (though He Himself was spotless) was not this a forsaken time of His life or PURE HELL of Him upon the cross? I will also note that Jesus did say the debt WAS paid just BEFORE He died physically. Though no doubt His physical death was also part of the payment for our sin. So when we say Jesus died for our sin we have to recognize it was all of Him that died (with the qualifier of what death means). We can't separate His humanity from His deity here in that we both believe The God Man died for our sin..... One last thing you wrote...."He is not seeing the actual death of His Spirit (which is Who? - please answer this, as if answered correctly, it will help clarify the issue)." I reply...... it was Jesus ,and His Spirit died the death of The Father forsaking Him and NOT the Spirit of Jesus ceasing to operate while experiencing this death. Do not mistake I am NOT rehearsing the heresy that Our Lord's divinity could die in the sense of ceasing to operate like a physically dead body, or that His HUMAN soul could stop working either. Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina. Last Edited By: earl40 07/23/08 22:24:28. Edited 1 time.
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5 Solas		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 281 07/24/08 06:57:36 Administrator	You originally stated: IOW all of Jesus died. I have had this discussion before and I understand the "wooden" idea we all can have concerning a word and what it means. The operative word here is death, which BTW I am having a devil of a time speaking with my SDA friend about. He can not get over how a man cam be both dead and alive at the same time. As you know, and believe, we as men can be both physically alive and spiritually dead at the same time. Why couldn't Jesus on the cross? All of Jesus includes His deity! However, Jesus commended His spirit unto the Father just prior to death and thus His spirit was not "literally" dead, but separated. While this may be called a form of death it is important to distinguish its literal meaning otherwise you would appear to be saying that Jesus' spirit and His deity - died. Now it appears you are saying something different - "I am NOT rehearsing the heresy that Our Lord's divinity could die in the sense of ceasing to operate like a physically dead body, or that His HUMAN soul could stop working either." However, I still disagree with you when you say [or at least the way you are saying it], "So when we say Jesus died for our sin we have to recognize it was all of Him that died (with the qualifier of what death means). We can't separate His humanity from His deity here in that we both believe The God Man died for our sin..... " I still maintain, and that biblically, "We can speak of God dying only if we mean that Jesus, the person who is God, died. The problem is that we cannot say that Jesus died in his divine nature." Christ did NOT die in His divine nature. While Christ's spirit was separated from His body, God did NOT separate himself from himself - God the Father DID NOT and CANNOT separate himself from Christ's own deity for it is the same deity as that of Christ - one essence, one nature! It is important to make this distinction. In Christ, 5 Solas Last Edited By: 5 Solas 07/24/08 07:51:41. Edited 1 time.
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earl40	So	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 29 07/26/08 19:29:50	did any of the divine nature of Jesus pay in the atonement? If so what part did that nature play? Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina.
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5 Solas		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 283 07/28/08 09:49:56 Administrator	earl40 wrote: did any of the divine nature of Jesus pay in the atonement? If so what part did that nature play? Possibly the communicatio idiomatum (Reformed version, not Lutheran) will help clarify this: the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. Since Jesus is one person with two natures (hypostatic union) and since the attributes of the two natures are ascribed to the one person, when Jesus died on the cross, His sacrifice was of infinite value because the qualities of divinity were ascribed to the one person of Jesus. Therefore, Jesus' sacrifice was infinite in value and capable of saving us from our sins ("blood of God" in Acts 20.28) even though it was only the human side of Christ that died. In Christ, 5 Solas
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earl40	Did The Father forsake Jesus?	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 30 07/29/08 12:34:21	I know you believe such but the point I am trying to make is that the atonement happened while Jesus was dying (and experiencing death) on the cross which included His physical death. If the process of was not important then Our Lord could have given up His Spirit as soon as the nails were driven in and He was raised up. I know all of prophesy was to be fulfilled while He hung there but is not some of the suffering He experienced PART of the atonement? Earl,A man married to a girl named Tina. Last Edited By: earl40 07/29/08 12:36:22. Edited 1 time.
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5 Solas		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 285 07/29/08 13:04:29 Administrator	Yes, the Father forsook Jesus, but He did not forsake Jesus' diety - which is the Father's diety, as well (one nature). As stated, We can speak of God dying only if we mean that Jesus, the person who is God, died. The problem is that we cannot say that Jesus died in his divine nature. He only died in his human nature. (This is not the same thing as saying that his human nature died; natures don't die, persons do.) It would be just as impossible for Jesus to have died in his divine nature as it would be for the Father or the Holy Spirit to die. It was only necessary that Jesus die in his human nature. His divine nature was not in the grave for 3 days - but His body was..... This is normally what we mean when we say Christ died for our sins and rose again (1 Cor. 15:3-4) ... that Jesus died (1 Thess. 4:14), He died, (Rom. 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:15; ), et. al.. In Christ, 5 Solas
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