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MarkNZ wrote:

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Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 are old covenant and spoken to pharisees.

Jesus is the head of the church and as the head comes 1st the church couldn't possibly start until Jesus had died on that cross. However I'll go look up some of that other stuff you've recommended.

By the way, there are other things that weren't revoked but we don't practice them.

Evaluating Premillennialism, Part I

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• Evaluating Premillennialism, Part II

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• Evaluating Premillennialism, Part III

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• Evaluating Premillennialism, Part IV

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MarkNZ wrote:

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Found some more scripture:
Matthew 16:18 ( I will build my church.) future tense. Not, I am building or I have been building.

Eph 2:20-21 (built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

These English words, 'I will build' could easily mean to build something new; and the Greek word oikodomeo, which is used in this place, can mean to erect a new building. However, the Lexicons give several other meanings for oikodomeo: to rebuild; to repair; to renew; to restore; to name just a few. The word is used frequently in the NT with this meaning. Three familiar passages: (1) Matthew 23:29, 'ye build the tombs of the prophets' (the last of them died four centuries before Christ), where it clearly means restoring those sepulchers, and (2 & 3) Matthew 26:61 and 27:40, both refer to a temple thrown down which is to be rebuilt in three days. This word oikodomeo is used in all of these passages, and quite clearly means to rebuild or raise up again.

A proof that it was not something totally new which our Lord said He would build upon this rock, but the raising up of the fallen sanctuary, is given by the first Church Council (Acts 15). James showed how God had visited the nations to take out of them a people for Himself, agreed fully with what God had promised through the prophets centuries before. He quoted from Amos 9:11-12, using the portions applying to the question before them. He introduced this quotation thus: "After these things I will return, And I will build again" (Acts 15:16, ASV). These words plainly point us back to the things God had just spoken of to the 'house of Israel' in Amos 9: 7-10, in which He called them progressively 'the children of Israel', 'Israel' (the nation), the 'house of Jacob,' and then the 'house of Israel.' God assured the 'house of Israel' by name that He would not entirely destroy that house, but He would cause them to move to and fro 'among the nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth' (Amos 9: 9).

Indeed, as Paul says the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and PROPHETS (plural), Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Eph. 2:20-21). Your proof text!

Indeed, Christ is the Head of the Church and he was the one speaking in Matthew above -- thus the Church was already present. Moreover, Christ the Head of the Church has been around for some time -- well before His incarnation.

Time for bed

MarkNZ wrote:

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(Indeed, Christ is the Head of the Church and he was the one speaking in Matthew above -- thus the Church was already present. Moreover, Christ the Head of the Church has been around for some time -- well before His incarnation. )

Just one more point re.above:

I know he was from the beginning but he had to die and rise 1st before the church could start. The Holy Spirit had to come at the day of pentecost which i believe is the beginning of the church. We are born again of the holy spirit therefore until he came there could be no church.

Anyway have a happy easter.

Where in scripture do you see that Christ had to die "first" before the Church could have a any beginning?

Besides the first sermon including OT/OC scriptures (Acts 1:16; 1:20; 2:16; 2:25; 2:29; 2:34, etc.), Acts 2:41 states, "They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls" and Acts 2:47, .... "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." A thing must first exist before anything can be added to it.

Yes, the Church was already present, but not because of Pentecost (where is it that you read that Pentecost is the beginning of the church - which "exact" text, or is this merely your assumption?). The very author of Acts reveals that during Stephen's defense before the Sanhedrin, he referred to Israel after the exodus as "the Church in the wilderness." Acts 7:38 states, "This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us." Stephen was referring to passages like the following:

Deuteronomy 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the Church. (LXX)

Deuteronomy 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the Church, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. (LXX)

"Ekklesia" (Church) is found numerous times in the LXX. The church was already present to be added unto in Acts 2, because it was being rebuilt, restructured, etc. It was already in existence! Moreover, the day of Pentecost was a partial fulfillment of Joel 2:27f given to the assembly (2:16) of Israel - the Church.

Furthermore, Psalm 22:18 is a direct prophecy about the NT Church. It is clearly interpreted as such in Hebrews 2:12. In context, the writer of Hebrews was speaking of the whole body of believers being joined in Christ. He wrote in verse 10 of Christ as the "author of their salvation." In the next verse, he wrote that all of the redeemed are one in Christ. He next quoted Psalm 22:22 from the LXX in support of this point. Since there is no question that this is a Psalm about Christ, and since it is written in the first person, it is clear that prophetically, Christ Himself is speaking in this Psalm. When we get to verse 22, the same person (Christ) is still speaking prophetically. He says, "in the midst of the Church will I sing praise to thee [the Father]." Note that, "He (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them "brethren," saying..." and then quoted this Psalm …. This is consistent with the previous verses of Psalm 22. Thus, the scripture teaches us the Church began in O. T. and reached a fuller fulfillment in the N. T.

Wayne Grudem states it clearer than I do:

The church is the community of all true believers for all time. This definition understands the church to be made of all those who are truly saved. Paul says, "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Eph. 5:25). Here the term "the church" is used to apply to all those whom Christ died to redeem, all those who are saved by the death of Christ. But that must include all true believers for all time, both believers in the New Testament age and believers in the Old Testament age as well. So great is God's plan for the church that he has exalted Christ to a position of highest authority for the sake of the church: "He has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" (Eph. 1:22-23).

Jesus Christ himself builds the church by calling his people to himself. He promised, "I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18). And Luke is careful to tell us that the growth of the church came not by human effort alone, but that "the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved" (Acts 2:47). But this process whereby Christ builds the church is just a continuation of the pattern established by God in the Old Testament whereby he called people to himself to be a worshiping assembly before him. There are several indications in the Old Testament that God thought of his people as a "church," a people assembled for the purpose of worshiping God. When Moses tells the people that the Lord said to him, "Gather the people to me that I may let them hear my words, so that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live upon the earth..." (Deut. 4:10), the Septuagint translates the word for "gather" (Heb. H7735) with the Greek term ekklesialo "to summon an assembly," the verb that is cognate to the New Testament noun ekklesia (G1711) "church."

It is not surprising, then, that the New Testament authors can speak of the Old Testament people of Israel as a "church" (ekklesia, G1711). For example, Stephen speaks of the people of Israel in the wilderness as "the church (ekklesia) in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38, author's translation). And the author of Hebrews quotes Christ as saying that he would sing praise to God in the midst of the great assembly of God's people in heaven: "In the midst of the church (ekklesia) I will sing praise to you" (Heb. 2:12, author's translation, quoting Ps. 22:22).

Therefore the author of Hebrews understands the present-day Christians who constitute the church on earth to be surrounded by a great "cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1) that reaches back into the earliest eras of the Old Testament and includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets (Heb. 11:4-32). All these "witnesses" surround the present-day people of God, and it seems only appropriate that they, together with the New Testament people of God, should be thought of as God's great spiritual "assembly" or "church." Moreover, later in chapter 12 the author of Hebrews says that when New Testament Christians worship we come into the presence of "the assembly (lit. "church," Gk. ekklesia, G1711) of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven." This emphasis is not surprising in light of the fact that the New Testament authors see Jewish believers and Gentile believers alike to be now united in the church. Together they have been made "one" (Eph. 2:14), they are "one new man" (v. 15) and "fellow citizens" (v. 19), and "members of the household of God" (v. 19).

Therefore, even though there are certainly new privileges and new blessings that are given to the people of God in the New Testament, both the usage of the term "church" in Scripture and the fact that throughout Scripture God has always called his people to assemble to worship himself, indicate that it is appropriate to think of the church as constituting all the people of God for all time, both Old Testament believers and New Testament believers.

Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, 854 (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, Mich.: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 1994).

It is time to disappear for family time - long weekend. Maybe someone else will pick up the mantel and reveal to you even further the realities of Israel and the church.

MarkNZ stated,

I also believe the old testiment saints are in heaven but believe the Church started at the day of Pentecost.

Where is the scriptural evidence that "the Church started at the day of Pentecost?" I have asked this numerous times and yet no scripture??? We know that mere assumptions are not above scripture, so where is the scripture???

MarkNZ stated,

Israel cannot possibly be interpreted as the church as you need to be born again to be part of the church, and we all know that the nation of Israel ( apart from messianic Jews) is certainly not christian.

Here you are failing to distinguish between the: (1) visible church and (2) invisible church. The visible church contains both those lost and saved. It contains OC individuals like Esau and Ishmael - lost, but covenant members. It also includes those our Lord spoke about saying, "not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, … (Matt.5:21 f) and John saying. "they went out from us that they may be manifest they ere not of us …" (1 John 2:18-19; e.g. Rom. 9:6; 2 Pet. 2). I'm sure you would admit that many in today's churches are not saved either. Thus, Israel meets the definitions of the visible church. Some in Israel were saved, others lost.

The invisible church is all the elect from the foundation of the world. This church contains only the saved. This includes only those that were/are saved - all the elect - Jew and Gentile throughout all generations. We in the visible church do not know who all these are.

Moreover, you are failing to distinguish between national Israel and what we may call spiritual Israel - or if it is easier even Christian Israel (Rom. 2:28-29). Scripture clearly states, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness" (Gal. 3:6-7). He had the Gospel preached to him (Gal. 3:8 ). Hebrews 11 contains a long list of individuals saved by faith and in the church which the writer of Hebrews attempts to use (Heb. 12:1-2) to encourage NC believers.

MarkNZ stated,

Anyway, I guess we have different views on that one so will have to leave it at that and i hope you enjoy your holiday.

Yes, it is evident that we have different views, but it is significant in that taking an unscriptural view on Israel may lead to sin - i.e. like alleging one does not need to tithe, etc.